Jones Greenwald Debate Strategy

Ground Rules

1. No one should be above the law. All sworn in individuals in the United States swear and oath to the Constitution.

2. We agree that we can figure out intent without reading minds or requiring a confession.

3. We agree that “isn’t it weird” isn’t an accurate attack. Strong claims need strong evidence.

4. Donald Trump and his campaign made phone calls to multiple states pushing his false election fraud claims in order to get state election officials to flip their EC votes. Trump knew these claims were false. What would it take to convince you that Trump was making knowingly false claims? Would we apply this same standard to other people (e.g. Hillary’s emails)? What about Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham in private texts saying they didn’t believe Powell’s claim of Election Fraud?

   1. Trump won in states with no-excuse absentee voting in 2020, including Alaska, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, and Wyoming. He had no reason to believe absentee voting was rigged or corrupt.
   2. Trump would repeat election fraud claims that had been widely debunked, many times just days after being informed and being shown evidence that they had been debunked.
   3. All of these people were trusted by Trump to investigate claims of election fraud:
      1. Bill Stepien, Trump’s National Field Director for his campaign, a lifelong Republican, who also worked on Giuliana’s presidential campaign in 2007-2008, told Trump he had lost on election night.
      2. Chris Miller, Trump’s Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, attested that Matt Oczkowski, Trump’s campaign’s top data scientist, told him on election night that he was going to lose.
      3. William Barr, Trump’s Attorney General of the Department of Justice, told Trump repeatedly that he’d investigated and found absolutely no signs of voter fraud.
      4. Jeffry Rosen, Trump’s acting Attorney General of the Department of Justice, called or met with Trump only ever day to tell him there was no election fraud.
      5. Richard Donoghue, Trump’s acting attorney general, told Trump the information he was getting was false.
      6. Chris Stirewalt, former Fox New political editor, said that Trump had no chance of winning the election after the votes were counted.
      7. Jason Miller, the Trump Campaign Senior Advisor, informed Trump several times that there wasn’t enough evidence of fraud to overturn the election.
         1. “When our research and campaign legal team can’t back up any of the claims made by our Elite Strike Force Legal Team, you can see why we’re 0-32 on our cases. I’ll obviously hustle to help on all fronts, but it’s tough to own any of this when it’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.”
      8. Mike Pence, Trump’s Vice President, said there was never evidence of widespread fraud, and that he believed there was no good evidence of enough fraud to overturn the election.
      9. Matthew Morgan, the General Counsel of Trump’s campaign, claimed that the Trump staff, including him and Marc Short and Greg Jacob, didn’t believe there was sufficient evidence of voter fraud.
      10. Brad Raffensperger, the Republican Georgia Secretary of State, denied every single claim that Trump made about election Fraud.
      11. Brian Kemp, the Republican Governor of Georgia, denied that the election was stolen in Georgia.
      12. A group of prominent Republicans (4 Federal Judges, 2 former Senators, a lawyer and someone who worked on Capitol Hill for 20 years) published a conservative report, titled Lost, Not Stolen, which claimed
          1. The report concludes “that Donald Trump and his supporters had their day in court and failed to produce substantive evidence to make their case.” President Trump and his legal allies “failed because of a lack of evidence and not because of erroneous rulings or unfair judges … . In many cases, after making extravagant claims of wrongdoing, Trump’s legal representatives showed up in court or state proceedings empty-handed, and then returned to their rallies and media campaigns to repeat the same unsupported claims.”
      13. Eleven of the judges who ruled against Trump were Trump federal judiciary appointments.
          1. One of those Trump nominees, Judge Stephanos Bibas of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, rejected an appeal by the Trump Campaign claiming that Pennsylvania officials “did not undertake any meaningful effort” to fight illegal absentee ballots and uneven treatment of voters across counties. Judge Bibas wrote in his decision that “calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here.” Another Trump nominee, Judge Brett Ludwig of the Eastern District of Wisconsin, ruled against President Trump’s lawsuit alleging that the result was skewed by illegal procedures that governed drop boxes, ballot address information, and individuals who claimed“ indefinitely confined” status to vote from home. Judge Ludwig wrote in his decision, that “this Court has allowed plaintiff the chance to make his case and he has lost on the merits” because the procedures used “do not remotely rise to the level” of breaking Wisconsin’s election rules.
      14. Ivanka and Kushner, Trump’s daughter and son-in-law, prepared to move right after the election, with Ivanka stating she believed Barr’s testimony.
      15. Alex Cannon, Trump’s campaign lawyer, said he told advisers that there was no election fraud.
      16. Kellyanne Conway, Trump’s counselor, wrote in her published memoir that she had told Trump he lost.
          1. “The team had failed on November 3, and they failed again afterward. By not confronting the candidate with the grim reality of his situation, that the proof had not surfaced to support the claims, they denied him the evidence he sought and the respect he was due. Instead supplicant after sycophant after showman genuflected in front of the Resolute Desk and promised the president goods they could not deliver.”
      17. Ken Block, a data mining firm hired by Donald Trump to find evidence of voter fraud, said they found very little evidence of voter fraud, and that it was equal on the Democratic and Republican side.
   4. Trump’s campaign filed 62 suits and lost 61 of them, 30 of them due to not even having adequate evidence to bring a suit forward, and most of them asking for insane or unreasonable remedies.
      1. The one suit was a victory in Pennsylvania, which allowed voters to not go back and “cure” ballots if they had failed to provide identification. The ruling did not change the outcome in Pennsylvania.
   5. Donald Trump called Georgia and Michigan making false claims in order to make them decertify their vote.
      1. Trump makes a litany of false claims that have all been rejected by Raffensberger in his call to Georgia. After the call, Trump’s mischaracterization of the call lead to Raffensberger leaking it to the public.
      2. Trump and Giuliana called Republican Senate Majority leader Mike Shirkey and Republican House Speaker Lee Chatfield and repeated more false claims to them about the election, which both said had been investigated and denied. In response, Trump and his team maliciously tweeted out Shirkey’s personal cell phone number and a number for Chatfield for people to spam. Shirkey said he received nearly 4,000 text messages..

5. Donald Trump created and implemented a fake elector scheme to undermine the legitimate state electors. There was never any compelling reason to believe any part of this scheme was legal. Would we feel the same if Biden had refused to certify the vote for Trump because of “Russia Collusion?” What about Gore refusing to certify the vote over the Florida recounts in 2000? What if Kamala Harris refuses to certify the vote for Trump?

   1. Donald Trump and his team enticed 7 sets of electors to fraudulently fill out ballots and transmit them to NARA, falsely claiming that they were the duly appointed electors authorized to transmit the votes. They lied about being the duly appointed electors and they lied about meeting in the State Capitols to certify their votes.
   2. According to the first Eastman memo, Mike Pence would read and count through the ballots, declare that there are multiple sets of electors for the 7 states that Trump had false electors set in for, then declare that no sets of electors can be declared valid. At this point, Trump would have 232 EC votes to Biden’s 222, making him the winner. If the Democrats claim 270, a majority of votes, is required, Pence can throw the vote back to the House of Representatives, where each state gets one vote on who the president should be. Republicans had 26 states controlled in the senate, meaning Trump could still win the election with their votes.
      1. Eastman had already said prior to this that the strategy was not valid. He told Greg Jacobs, Mike Pence’s legal counsel, that the Supreme Court would reject his legal theory, 9-0.
         1. “I don’t agree with this. The 12th Amendment only says that the President of the Senate opens the ballots in the joint session then, in the passive voice, that the votes shall then be counted. 3 USC § 12 of the Electoral Count Act says merely that he is the presiding officer, and then it spells out specific procedures, presumptions, and default rules for which slates will be counted. Nowhere does it suggest that the president of the Senate gets to make the determination on his own. § 15 of the Electoral Count Act doesn’t either.”
      2. Pence’s private counsel, Richard Cullen, contacted former Fourth Circuit Judge Michael Luttig, a conservative judge that Eastman previously clerked for. Luttig testified there was no basis in law for Eastman’s theory.
         1. Judge Luttig completely rejected Eastman’s “blueprint to overturn the 2020 election” as “constitutional mischief” and ‘the most reckless, insidious, and calamitous failure[ ] in both legal and political judgment in American history.”
      3. Pat Cipollone, White House Counsel for Donald Trump, said that the idea to overturn the election using Mike Pence was crazy.
      4. Eric Herschmann, another White House lawyer, said the plan was “completely crazy” and “obviously made no sense.”
      5. Pat Philbin, Deputy White House Counsel, also had the same understanding that the plan wasn’t possible.
   3. The second Eastman memo claimed that Pence himself could make the determination as to which slates of electors were legitimate.

6. Establish that Donald Trump attempted to bully Pence into unilaterally overturning the election. Is it in the spirit of the Constitution to ask Pence to toss out electoral slates? What is the difference at this point between Trump and an authoritarian?

   1. Trump asked Pence multiple times to commit to this course of action. Pence and his legal counsel responded negatively, every single time.
      1. In a January 1st call, Trump told Pence he was “too honest” after he explained that he did not have the power to unilaterally determine the outcome of the election.
   2. Trump tweeted multiple times and called out in his January 6th speech multiple times for Pence to “do the right thing.” He continued these tweets even as the riots raged on, leading to protestors chanting “Bring him out!” and “Hang Mike Pence!""

7. Establish that Donald Trump capitalized on the Jan. 6th riot to continue his pressure to decertify the election. Why would Trump not want to stop the riots if they weren’t his intention? Shouldn’t he be doing everything within his power to stop the riots if they were going to make him look bad? Why were the rioters chanting 1776, what were they sent to the Capitol by Donald Trump to protest?

   1. Trump was getting a play-by-play update on everything going on at the Capitol, with people begging him to call off the rioters.
      1. Minutes after arriving back at the White House, a White House staffer informed him of the rioting. This happened at 1:21 PM.
      2. Ben Williamson, the White House Acting Director of Communications, and Sarah Matthews, the Deputy Press Secretary, went to Mark Meadows and Kayleigh McEnany to urge the president to issue a statement.
      3. Hutchinson, Kushner and Cipollone all tried to convince Trump to put out a statement to stop the rioters.
      4. Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, the two who spent the most time with Trump during the Capitol Riots, both refused to respond to subpoenas about their interactions with Trump that day.
      5. McCarthy told Trump in a call from 2:26 to 3:06 that he needed to put a stop to this. Trump said “Well, Kevin, I guess they’re just more upset about the election theft than you are.”
      6. Marjorie Taylor Green texted Meadows at 2:28 PM: “Mark I was just told there is an active shooter on the first floor of the Capitol Please tell the President to calm people. This isn’t the way to solve anything.”
      7. Laura Ingram, at 2:32 PM: “Hey Mark, The president needs to tell people in the Capitol to go home.” “This is hurting all of us.” “He is destroying his legacy and playing into every stereotype … we lose all credibility against the BLM/Antifa crowd if things go South.” “You can tell him I said this.”
      8. Mick Mulvaney at 2:35 PM, “Mark: he needs to stop this, now. Can I do anything to help?”
      9. Representative Barry Loudermilk, 2:24 PM: ““It’s really bad up here on the hill.” “They have breached the Capitol.”232 At 2:48 p.m., Meadows responded: “POTUS is engaging.”233 At 2:49 p.m., Loudermilk responded: “Thanks. This doesn’t help our cause.”
      10. Representative William Timmons, 2:46 PM: “The president needs to stop this ASAP.”235 At 2:49 p.m., Meadows responded: “We are doing it.”
      11. Donald Trump Jr., 2:53 PM: ““He’s got to condem [sic] this shit. Asap. The captiol [sic] police tweet is not enough.”237 Meadows responded: “I am pushing it hard. I agree.”238 Later, Trump, Jr., continued: “This his [sic] one you go to the mattresses on. They will try to fuck his entire legacy on this if it gets worse.””
      12. Ivanka went into the room to also tell Trump to call off the rioters, having to regroup in Kushner’s office at times in between going into the room to request he call off the rioters.
   2. Most of Trump’s tweets were provocative, and he tried to continue to pressure Congress not to certify the vote.
      1. Trump’s first tweet at 2:24 PM. “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!""
      2. At 2:38 PM, Trump tweeted “Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!”
   3. Trump and Giuliani were trying to make phone calls to talk about the EC votes during the riots.
      1. At 2:26 PM Trump called Tommy Tuberville of Alabama to talk objections to the electoral count.
      2. From 2:26 to 3:06, Trump spoke to McCarthy.
      3. After Trump’s phone call with Giuliani, Giuliani began to call Members of Congress to talk about delaying the certification of the vote.
         1. He called Senator Marsha Blackburn, Senator Mike Lee, three calls to Senator Bill Hagerty, two calls to Jim Jordan, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Josh Hawley, and Senator Ted Cruz.
         2. Giuliani testified that he was calling to see if anything could be done about the vote. One of the voicemails he left to Senator Tuberville was:
            1. “The only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous States and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow—ideally until the end of tomorrow. So if you could object to every State and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every State, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote.”

Did Trump betray his people?

• Alex Jones and others said he would show up, he never did.
• Why didn’t Trump pardon any of them? Why did he call them Antifa?
• Trump only pardoned those close to him, he is the swamp.

4 years have passed since the last election. All of the investigations and court cases to find significant voter fraud have completely failed, yet Donald Trump still believes that significant voter fraud existed. Why should we believe that if the J6ers managed to delay the certification of the vote for additional investigations, that Donald Trump would believe anything that disagrees with his assumption that he won the election? Why would we expect him to leave office and not just continue to push to investigate more and more and more and more?